Late Trapper Medicines (ca. 1825-1850) (2024)

LATE TRAPPERS AND THE FAR WEST EXPLORERS [ca. 1825-1850]

Introduction

From 1825 to 1850, trappers were very active in the Far West, west of the continental divide. Between 1800 and 1825, the experience of a trapper in the Midwest and some of the higher elevation settings like the Adirondacks,Appalachia, and the Midwestern ranges in and around theCanadian border, could not compare with what trappers witnesses and experienced once they made their way through the Rocky Mountains. Unlike much of the continent east of the Rockies, there were regions of high temperature and very low water supply. Whereas the east coast had introduced the problems of venomous snake to trapping, it was the Far West that turned this natural problem into something more than just an occasional encounter you had with one of your worst or your horse’s worst enemies. Also, the problems trappers had with the Black Bear of the eastern mountain ranges did not at all compare with similar events involving the Brown and Grizzly Bears of the Rockies. The trees were bigger. The fish seemed bigger. The tales a trapper told when he ventured back home got bigger.

Everything seemed larger and more pristine to trappers in the Far West wilderness. Yet just a few trappers provide us with much insight into how these natural settings influenced their philosophy of things. Whether or not the trapper depended only upon his knife and gun to survive was not always apparent in the few reviews that do exist of trapperlife in the wilderness. What we obtain most of our perceptions of what this unique life in the outdoors was like comes fromwhat we read in later books published about this kind of lifestyle. In contrast, the trappers of the Rockies can be very much like the Davy Crocket of the East when we find those less common writings or books that seem to reveal what their life was really like. These writings provide us with some valuable insights, and at times stories riddled with oneexageration after another.

The world of the trapper from 1825 to 1850 pretty much overlaps with the world of an Indianscout or Fur Trader working at some Great Northwest Fur trade company fort setting. The following provides us with a few insights worth noting. This materia medica includes some phrases and words referred to in the writing that provide us with insight as to what the trapper knew about some of the more “modern world” back home. This suggests that a trapper’s life was not always as primitive as we like to imagine. Questionable or exceptionally unique trappers (or “trappers”) are reviewed separately from this page.

Mescal and Doe Mountain area

The following are the references used for this work:

REFERENCES

[William Marshall Anderson.] Dale L. Morgan and Eleanor Towles Harris, Eds. The Rocky Mountain Journals of William Marshall Anderson. The West in 1834. (The Huntington Library, San Marino, Cal. 1967)

NOTE: Took the Santa Fe route.

[James Clyman.] Charles L. Camp, Ed. 1792-1881. James Clyman. Frontiersman. The Adventures of a Trapper and Covered-Wagon Emigrant as told in his own reminiscences and diaries. (Champoeg Press, Portland, OR, 1960)

NOTE: The original diaries of Clyman, a Rocky Mountain Trapper, are owned by the Bancroft Library at the University of California. The route he took for healing west was the Oregon Trail during its early years of increasing use. Part of his travels also followed along the Missouri River, along White River and then through the Black Hills into Northern Wyoming.

[Zenas Leonard.] Milo Milton Quaife. Narrative of the Adventures of Zenas Leonard. A Native of Clearfield County, Pa., who sepnt five years in trapping for furs trading with the Indians, &c &c, of the Rocky Mountains. Written by Himself. Originally printed and published by D.W. Moore, Clearfield, Pa., 1839. Reprinted by Lakeside Press, Chicago, 1934.

Bracketed page numbers in the materia medica text refer to the copy produced by University Microfilms, Inc., 1966. Most other entries come from a review of Quaife’s rendering of this book.

Rufus B. Sage (Wikipedia)

Rufus B. Sage. Rocky Mountain Life: or, Startling Scenes and Perilous Adventures in the Far West. (Dayton: Edward Canby, n.y.

Events take place ca. 1842/3.

[Jedediah Smith.] Alanson J. Smith. Men Against the Mountains. Jedediah Smith and the Southwest Expedition of 1826-1829. (The John Day Company, New York, 1965)

[Thomas Long (Pegleg) Smith.] Sardis W. Templeton. The Lame Captain. The Life and Adventures of Pegleg Smith. (Los Angeles: Western Press, 1965)

Pegleg Smith is the nickname given to Thomas Long Smith.

[Theodore Talbot]. Charles H. Carey, Ed. The Journals of Theodore Talbot, 1843 and 1849-1852, with the Fremont Expedition of 1843 and the First Military Company in Oregon Territory 1849-1852. (Metropolitan Press, Portland, 1931)

Includes “Notes of a Journey beyond the Rocky Mountains in 1843 and 1844 with the Expedition for the Exploration of Oregon Territory.”

Secondary References

Mari Sandoz. The Beaver Men. Spearheads of Empire. (Hastings House Publishers, New York, 1964)

Commentary

Both science and medicine were changing during this pivotal time in American trapping history. The image we often attach to a trapper is that he knew little about these important elements of culture and survival, but through the basic life experience alone, along with some scommon sense, the trapper was aware enough about these discoveries to be able to integrate some of them into his personal philosophy.

For example, a trapper of the turn of the century might have felt that health was very much a result of self-determination with the individual always fighting back with the environment. Your shelter, how you could generate and make the best use of your fire, how good you were with catching fish and trapping beaver with what few inventions you had available to help you through this process, all of these made you a small piece of the local natural history, so small in fact that at times it must have been overwhelming to some to realize one morning while looking over a set of mountains that yourpresence is nothing more than just asingle thread woven into the largetapestry before you. Not that trappers typically get up every morning and think this way, but at times during a journey out west these elements of a personal philosophy must have crept into the daily activities at times, once you had some time to rest and contemplate about things.

For the 1825 to 1850 period in history, things had changed somewhat regarding natural philosophy and health. This natural history interpretation of the outdoors was made only bigger once more natural events and various forms of Nature’s artwork were experienced. But our view in general of the much smaller world, the microcosm as it was referred to a century or two earlier, had grown as well. The trapper alert to this change in the human understanding of things might be able to imagine the smallest of organisms found in water being associated with disease. No longer did the organism responsible for you illness have to be visible to the naked eye. You could look at a cup of mountain water and see the animalcules floating about that scientists claimed sometimes made you sick. The trapper therefore had a better sense of the environment he was in, and could make a few changes when necessary to live a healthier life–uncleanliness and all.

The 1825-1850 trapper also had a different sense of people, in particular those natives he often interacted with. Physiognomy and phrenology were becoming popular, and one of its first applications was regarding the shape of the American Indian and the related intellectual make-up these experts of thewilderness possessed. This was only occasionally brought up in the woods, but back home in the intellectual environment of American Europeanism, this was a major topic of conversation at times, one a trapper could not that easily engage in quite often.

We also find evidence during this time that not only was medicine becoming more specific in terms of how medicines were to be used for treating individuals, there were better details provided on what these uses were and for what types of conditions they most often applied. Some conditions remained unchanged since the early1800s, such as the inability to distinguish between cancer and cancer-like problems, those that could be cured versus those that could not be cured. Others became more accurate in their descriptions and distinction from similar conditions, such as the differences between the different fever types (intermittent, continuous, etc.) or the different reasons for how and why some airs and waters were healthy whereas others were not.

Also, when we look at how Indian philosophy and medical practices are documented in the Trapper stories and writings, we see the influences of thetranscendental movement taking hold between 1825 and 1850. Nature’s displays of magical powers are now recognized,admired, and now written about, like the fairy rings of the past now being referred to as the magical mushroom circles of the present. The details of the ability of the snake tocharm its prey was better understood. The meaning and purpose of Indian rituals like the sweat lodge, the smoking of the pipe, the makings and content of a medicine bag, were now alla part of the trapper’s lifestyle, not just another unique observation that could be recorded. The animal bones of the past became the talismans of the present. Equivalents were found in the Midwest and Farwest for the older herbs back east, with similar or slightly modified legends to be told about these uses. The Plantain of the Far East had its Downy Rattlesnake Plantain out west (although this Goodyera pubescens is east coast as well, just never really noticed.) The gall of a bear or deer was of little value in trapper medicine when compared with the gall of the Buffalo.

One thing that didn’t change so much in herbal medicine during the trapper period is this ongoing fascination with plant remedies for venomous snake bites. In American history, we can trace this common folklore passed down through the generations back to the 1600s, and if we take into consideration the shipping routes themselves, we can show proof that this American fascination with plants for treating snakebites had its parallels in European-Asian culture in India, where the plant legends related to venomous bites from asps,adders and cobras fascinated earlyplant taxonomists like Carl von Linne. From Northwest Territory in and around the Great Lakes during the late 1600s, to the Pacific Northwest of the 1800s, snakebite remedies continuously return to the diaries, recipe books, and even books published for those who wished to migrate to these new virgin territories. This seems more like a common folktale being repeated, than a series of facts about medical treatment being reinstated.

Trapper medicine was perhaps at its peak in intellectual development during the 1825-1850 time frame in this part of American history.This provides us with a unique way to think about trapper medicine–the result of schooling and knowledge acquired through experience within an outdoors classroom setting.

Were it not for the Civil War, the interest in trapping and its underlying natural philosophy may have undergone a fairly constant change over the years. But the temporary halting of public interest in this philosophyand unique style of living was lost due to the War of the Union. This meant that trapper’s philosophy remained something more common to just those few places where the war was not occupying most of the people’s times.Once the war was over, people could reminisce on those things popular before thewarbegan, including the popular culture perspective of trappers and trapper life. This enabled trapper medicine to become a popularfad in medicine once again during the years following the Civil War. We see this mostly taking place in the Far West.

So, not only did clothing change throughout the 3 or 4 periods in trapper history, the philosophy also changed, as did the effects this ideology had on American culture in general. This impact of trapper culture on American history in general is never really appreciated much by historians and writers, except by a select few. The signs are there of of trapper knowledge and philosophy penetrating the old-fashioned thinking back East, but like trappers, they are often hidden amongst the many other elements of nature.

There are two medicinal plants that I often think about in reference to this piece of trapper history.

The first is Ratibada or the Prairie Coneflower of the midwest. When this was first discovered, it became a very popular medicine, so much, that like ginseng it was overharvested in the Midwest. Soon, it was no longer a popular herbal medicine sold in the marketplace. A few decades later, this use for this plant was mimicked by a popular medicinal plant chemist, and the values of the Ratibada reassigned to the its new replacement, using the same lines of reasoning and same health claims–Echinacea. We have since then established a number of lines of reasoning, scientific or not, for echinacea being so valuable to the health of the human body, never aware of the fact that it was the Ratibada that really deserves this attention. But we cannot step back on the trail the science of plants medicines has taken us. We could go back to Ratibada, place it into our interpretation of things by testing its chemistry, and then be forced to change our theory slightly so the Ratibada can be included as well in this paradigm. That would provide a sense of fulfillment for the trappers’ knowledge and contributions to this forgotten piece of herbal medicine history.

The second plant I often refer to regarding trapper history is the Cleome or Rocky MountainBee Plant of the Midwest to Far West region. Its distribution began close to the Rocky Mountains on the Great Plains side of the mountain face. This plant has since taken a route of migration eastward towards the main eastern and centralGreat Plains cities. This is a result of trappers bringing this plant back with them from the Rocky Mountains. Due to the seed dispersal method (it does not stick to clothing and such like many plant seeds do), this suggests the plant was carried back deliberately across the travel routes. (For more, see Flora of the Great Plains plant distribution maps.)Like the Polygonum persicaria that follows the overland routes westward toward Oregon, making its way across Nebraska by way of this circuitous migration route only, we see the same happening for Cleome serrulata, but in an opposite direction. This mapping of these two plants is evidence for the contributions that trappers made to medicine.

Absinthe–see Artemisia, Wormwood.

Animalcules

“animalcules” is mentioned in relation to putrescent waters. Animalcules were not onlya curiosity, they were often considered the cause for certain diseases. This was in part true, such as intestinal worms and diarrhea or the role chiggers and fleas played in skin rashes and subsequent fevers. A very religious and/or natural theology minded trapper would probably have had some understanding and respect for these animalcules as a form of life. Thissensitivity to these little beings would have been due to thevery unique andpowerfulvital force they were felt to havein spite of their very small size. Some of this can be traced to a post-Newtonian essay penned by Cadwallader Colden, circulating around 1800, in which Newton’s Grand Theory based mostly on mechanical principles and philosophy absent of much God-evidence was surpassed in popularity by Colden’s more metaphysically-based essay on the same. This emphasis on Colden’s interpretation of the Universe and its energy was very influential upon students in the early years of microbiology being taught around this time. [See Colden’s detailedchronology for more, esp. 1750 entries from my webpage https://brianaltonenmph.com/6-history-of-medicine-and-pharmacy/hudson-valley-medical-history/colonial-herbalism/cadwallader-colden/a-chronology/the-coldens-cadwallader-and-jane-life-story-in-the-sciences/.]

[Talbot, 1843, p. 17]

Artemisia

Artemisia. Synonym: Greasewood.

[Sage, 1842/3, p. 148]

Artemisia

“…a sapless bitter shrub, and the leaves, though smaller, very much resemble our garden sage. [Tho very bitter, it is sometimes used for tea. Tis a very good diaphoretic.]”

[W.M. Anderson, page 115,

June 3, 1834 (Narrative)]

“Following the course of the Platte crossing “Deer Creek” about 10 A.M. Country affording nothing but sage or wormwood, or more properly Absinthe. This plant when first seen on the prairie is only a few inches high, as you approach the Rocky Mtns its size encreases until it is sometimes more than 6 feet, and the trunk as large as a man’s body…It is easily gathered and makes an excellent and much used substitute for wood, to make fires, especially west of the Rocky Mountains.”

[Talbot, 1843, p. 36]

See Sage, Wild Sage and Wormwood.

Ash Tree

Fraxinus

Part of a recipe for treating Rattlesnake bites [which see]. Possibly Fraxinus americanus (?) (White Ash).

[Talbot, 1843, p. 29]

Bitters–see Gall

Black Cohosh–see Snakeroot, Black

Black Currant–see Currant

Black Snakeroot–see Snakeroot, Black

Bleeding/Blood-letting

Arizona

Climatology/Climopathy

Near the Sandy River-Horse Creek vicinity:

“Never was there a purer, drier and more elastic atmosphere than we have breathed…”

[W.M. Anderson, page 129,

June 13, 1834 (Narrative)]

Wind burning on while travelling on the Wind River.

Upper Montana

[W.M. Anderson, page 177, (Narrative)]

Travelling into the mountains covered by Balsam and Cedar trees, the foliage “afforded an atmosphere…as aromatic as the air of Eden.”

[Sage, 1842/3, p. 148]

“The entire Eastern Division of Upper California possesses a uniformly salubrious and healthful atmosphere. Sickness, so far as my knowledge extends, is rarely known.”

[Sage, 1842/3, p. 237, (see also page 270)]

New Mexico

Western California: “The air is almost invariably pure and free from the noxious exhalations common to many countries, which contributes to render the climate uniformly healthy…”

[Sage, 1842/3, p. 245]

“animalcules” is mentioned in relation to putrescent waters. Ponds or wallows formed by Buffalo wallowing, allowed rainfall to collect for the trappers to drink.

[Talbot, 1843, p. 17]

Common Saffron–see Saffron, Common

Commote [French]

commote

“radish like with blueish stem”

Probably the Sweet Potato (Ipomoea batatas), the common name for which is camote. This can be differentiated from the Yam (Dioscorea sp.) by the stem and leave color and form, but in more recent gardening history, this is less the case due to controlled cross-breeding.

[Sage, 1842/3, p. 147]

(Camas?)

Cottonwood (Populus sp.)

Cottonwood.

In December, 1814, the horses of the team Leonard was on were near starving. In an attempt to alleviate this problem, they decided to try to feed the horses the inner bark of cottonwood trees. There was a tree often referred to as Sweet Cottonwood on the trail they travelled, the bark of which was palatable. Leonard writes “each man turned out and peeled and collected a quantity of this bark, from the grove in which we were encamped for his horses.” The bark of the tree noted on this occasion turned out to be too bitter for the horses to eat. [December, 1814]

Identification note: Cottonwood is Populus deltoides, of which various varieties, subspecies, and hybrids now exist across the country. At the junctions of different habitats or ecosystems, hybridization could take place between two native trees. With the import of decorative Populus species in the 1800s, this enabled further hybridization to take place, perhaps as early as 1840 near the settled farmlands in the Missouri-Kansas-Arkansas-Texas region. Tilia heterophylla Vent. (T. alba Michx.) in the Southeastern United States was also referred to as “Cottonwood.” [Lyon’s Plant Names, p. 372] This is the White Basswood, Bee-Tree, Silver-Leaf Poplar or Wahoo referred to in other writings. Wahoo later became a very important Physiomedicine and Indian Doctor medicine.

The inner bark of Basswood would be a great deal more palatable to horses than the Populin and perhaps simple tannin-bearing Populus tremuloides. The vague resemblances of Maple or Sweet Elder (Acer spp.) leaves to Cottonwood may have also led to Acer being misconstrued as Populus by early pioneers, but that assumption does not match the expected knowledge of a large group of trappers when it comes to identifying or knowing the plants.

[Leonard, 1839, pp. 19-20]

See Cottonwood, Sweet.

Cottonwood, Sweet (Tilia heterophylla Vent./T. alba Michx.)

Sweet cottonwood

At the Laramie River mouth:

“At the foot of the mountain we found abundance of sweet cottonwood, and our mules being very fond of it, we detained two to three days to let them recruit from their suffering in crosing (sic) the mountains.” [1814]

Notes also made about the fir, cedar, white pine willow and rose growing in abundance nearby.

[Leonard, 1839, pp. 40-41]

Currants

Black Currant (Ribes nigrum)

Part of an internal Rattlesnake bite remedy [which see].

[Talbot, 1843, p. 29]

Daphne species

Spurge-Flax [French: Ecorce de Garow, or Garou] as Daphne Guidium, as well as other Daphne species.

The Spurge-Laurel is identified by Carey in a footnote to Talbot’s writings as Daphne laureola.

Both were part of a Rattlesnake bite remedy [which see].

[Talbot, 1843, p. 29]

Ecorce de Garow [French]–see Daphne species.

Edible Rootstock [Camas? Lily?]

Sage gave a description of large harvest of rootcrops in Rio de las Animas near the Head of Cimarone; from the description, he apparently thought the harvest was of a wild onion: “Its color was white, size a bit equal to a pigeon’s egg, and appearance much like that of the common onion; but it had flag-shaped stalks and was much less offensive in taste and smell than is natural to this species of roots.”

Daphne species like D. mezereon and D. gnidium aretraditional examples ofEcorce de Garou. [Ecorce = bark, garou = ?ware?)

The French nomenclature of courseimplies this is a French Trapper name for the plant.

The french verbage doesn’t exactly fit the plant Sage described. Ecorce means bark. Sage gives a description of a root crop that resembles the wild onion, suggesting a member of the Liliaceae or its close allies. Since it lacked the odor of Alliums, this suggests a look-alike. Camas (not deadly camas) has and edible rootstock, which for the moment best fits the descriptions provided.

[Sage, 1842/3, p. 325]

Elm, Slippery, and American

American Elm (Ulmus sp.)

Slippery Elm (Ulmus rubra) (added by self)

Both could be part of a Rattlesnake bite remedy [which see].

[Talbot, 1843, p. 29]

Farrier Notes

“…tall, rough prairie grass would otherwise have rasped our horses hoofs to the quick.”

[W.M. Anderson, page 205, (Narrative)]

“the Liriodendron Tulipifera (Poplar), an infusion of its Bark given with success to horses.”

See Rattlesnake Bites, Cottonwood (as feed).

[Talbot, 1843, p. 29]

French Trappers

For notes and remedies, French terms commonly used included: Bois de bache, Commote, Ecorce de Garow, Garou, Pomme blanc(he/e), Pomme terre (common potato), etc.

For French herbs, see Commote, Daphne, Pomme blanc(e).

The French had also perfected the Essential Oil-Perfume industry quite early in European history, enabling them to secure income by selling their essential oils, such as oil of peppermint and oil of horehound.

Gall, Buffalo

Travelling through the Platte River Valley near Sibelle’s Creek and Hole, Sage describes to his reader an example of a truly Midwest healing agent, the gall (and/or perhaps bile) from the Buffalo which some mountaineers had learned to capture and skin:

“I here became for the first time acquainted with a kind of beverage very common among the mountaineers. The article alluded to may with much proprietary be termed “bitters,” as the reader will readily acknowledge on learning the nature of its principle ingredient.”

“It is prepared by the following simple process, viz: with one pint of water mix one-fourth gill of buffalo-gall, and you will then have before you a wholesome and exhilirating drink.”

“To a stomach unaccustomed to its use it may at first create a slightly noisome sensation, like the incipient effects of an emetic; and, to one strongly bilious, it might cause vomiting; –but on the second or third trial, the stomach attains a taste for it and receives it with no inconsiderable relish.”

Sage noted it to be most effective on treating the “whole system.” The Gall served to brace the nerves, and to tonify and restore an impaired appetite and digestive tract. Of its most traditional use, a characteristic of the Bible Belt and of the Native American influence, Sage wrote:

“As a Sanative, it tends to make sound an irritated and ulcerated stomach, reclaiming it to a healthful and lively tone, and thus striking a blow at the most prolific source of so large a majority of the diseases common to civilzed (sic) life.”

Sage claimed it was most useful for treating dyspepsia (indigestion and similar digestive tract disorders):

“…were those laboring under the wasting influences of this disease to drink gall-bitters and confine themselves exclusively to the use of some one kind of diet (animal food always preferable,) thousands who are now pining away by piecemeal, would be restored to perfect soundness, and snatched from the very threshold of a certain grave which yawns to receive them.”

[Sage, 1842/3, p. 178-79]

Garou–see Daphne and Rattlesnake Bites

Glauber Salt

glober salts

“I saw to day, the earth covered for half a mile, with a white robe, resembling at a distance, lime, when closely viewed, is very similar to burnt alumn. This is on the average, three inches in depth. Its taste to me is compound of salt, some kind of alkali & salt petre of which last it seems to be principally composed. It is call[ed] by the mountaineers glober salts. It has a purgative effect of great suddenness.”

[W.M. Anderson, page 118,

June 7, 1834 (Diary)]

Glauber Salts Lake

“The trappers call this “Glauber Salts Lakes…It seems that luxuries, neccessaries, and apothecary stuff are spread all over the earth, as well as for irrational as for the rational creature.”

[W.M. Anderson, page 119,

June 7, 1834 (Narrative)]

Goldenrod (Solidago species)

Solidago sp. (Golden Rod)

Part of a Rattlesnake bite internal remedy [which see].

[Talbot, 1843, p. 29]

Grains de[s] Boeufs [Bull-berries] (Lepargyrea argentea [Nutt.] Green; akaShepherdia argentea)

“”Grains de Boeuf” or Bull-berries…not quite ripe, but we found them very palatable”

[August 27th, 1843]

[Talbot, 1843, p. 40]

Gunpowder

“salt and gunpowder”

[Talbot, 1843, p. 29]

Possibly a Domestic remedy, picked up by early 19th Century allopaths.

See Salt, Rattlesnake Bites, and separate Oregon Trail pharmacal section for Gunpowder notes.

Horehound

White Horehound (Marrubium vulgare?)

Part of a Rattlesnake bite internal remedy [which see].

[Talbot, 1843, p. 29]

Horses–see Cottonwood, Farrier Notes, Rattlesnake Bites.

Lamb’s Quarters (Chenopodium species)

Note regarding the growth of a Mushroom ring, in which Chenopodium grew in abundance in the fertile portion of this ring. These “Magical Circles of the Prairies” were possibly the “fairy rings” of Honey Mushroom (Armillaria mellea).

The Lamb’s Quarters was identified as Chenopodium album, an introduced species. The native plant Chenopodium ambrosioides, which has a very similar appearance, may be the one discussed here.

[Talbot, June 23, 1843 entry, p. 14-15]

Ligature–see Tourniquet

“Magical Circles of the Prairies”

Rings of flowers and plants produced by the seeds dropped from the hides of by cattle:

“We frequently notice circles or, rather rings varying from 10 to 50 feet in diameter, the grass of which is ranker than the surrounding sword. Sometimes the belt is composed of the plant called Lambs Quarters intermixed with large mushrooms; many conjectures have been framed with regard to this curious vegetation.”

One such conjecture:

“The cows rolling in during the day gather quantities of seeds &c in their heavy fleeces; now it is supposed that tramping continually in one spot all night, they shake off these seeds and thus spring up the “Magical Circles of the Prairies.”

Possibly a note regarding the growth of a Mushroom ring, in which Chenopodium grew in abundance in the fertile portion of this ring. These “Magical Circles” were possibly the “fairy rings” of Honey Mushroom (Armillaria mellea).

[Talbot, 1843, p. 14-15]

Maple (Acer spp.)

a sweet and pleasant liquid from the sap.

[Sandoz, p. 91]

See Sweet-Elder.